White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, in his final days in office, said on Tuesday that China, Russia and Iran are “demonstrably weaker” after President Joe Biden’s time in office, during a wide-ranging conversation on “The Ezra Klein Show” podcast.

Questioned by Klein about whether President-elect Donald Trump is better suited to bring back international order as “a strongman” leader, Sullivan responded, “I believe we are in a plastic moment in the world, a time when our competitors are trying to challenge the system in a profound way. It’s true of China, it’s true of Russia, it’s true of Iran. And they’re doing so trying to push the boundaries of what they can — for lack of a better term — get away with. And I believe that, in a period like this, there is no way to prevent all crises, all turbulence. I don’t think that is a viable endgame for American foreign policy.”

Sullivan continued, “I think the endgame for American foreign policy should be: Can we manage that period without our getting dragged into a major conflict? We have done that. Can we manage that period with our alliances stronger than we found them? I think it is indisputable that we have done that. And can we manage that period where our adversaries are weaker than we found them? In all three cases — China, Russia, Iran — I think the record is clear that they are demonstrably weaker.”

Addressing the Biden administration’s approach to Israel and the Middle East conflict, Sullivan said, “What we have tried to do is adopt a policy that says: We are going to continue to support Israel in its attempt to defeat terrorist enemies and to deter Iran. We are going to do so, including through the provision of military assistance. At the same time, we are also going to be unflinching in our critique of Israel, where we believe they have gone too far. And we are going to push them to a better place on things like humanitarian assistance.”

The war in Gaza, Sullivan said, “continues to be a daily struggle, in part because we are trying to deliver this cease-fire and hostage deal. And just having Israel say: OK, we accept the cease-fire. We have to just stop — at a time when all of these hostages are being held — that doesn’t wash.”

At the end of the interview, Sullivan gave listeners a book recommendation: Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks from the Stone Age to A.I., by Israeli writer Yuval Noah Harari, which was published in September, 2024. Sullivan said he thinks “everyone should read this book.”